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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2169
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Posted - 2012.09.18 18:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
These changes make both TEs and TDs both must-have modules for every ship. They need a nerf.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2170
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Posted - 2012.09.18 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:I also can't understand this obsession with swinging the nerfhammer around like some bloodthirsty viking. Why not retrieve the significantly underused buffhammer from its dusty shelf instead? ... We have a dozen threads in this forum that's showcasing the use of the buffhammer. It boggles my mind that you don't notice unless it's affecting whatever ship you're flying today. -Liang Yes, buffing the T1 frigates so a majority become redundant and useless and the T1 cruisers in a way which doesn't actually solve the problem of why they're never used. Meanwhile, the staples of my ship hangar - Drake, Hurricane and Tengu - get their skulls cracked by the nerfhammer.
Those ships are getting their skulls cracked by the nerfhammer in order to make room for other ships to be flown. It really is necessary, and your response is a perfect example of how individual players never have a game's long term interests at heart. They only have their own short term interests in mind, even if it kills the game in the process.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2171
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Posted - 2012.09.18 19:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wolfstorm wrote:This is the most ******** thing I've seen CCP propose to date. *I've seen more than a few doozies
Please for the love of the gods stop dumbing down eve.
This is not balancing - this is making everything the same crap with different models. Killing all of the strategic options and differences between the racial ships. When they are done we are going to have WoW in space and it's going to be just another trash MMO. Way to go atlanta office - I can't wait for the east coast to sink so we can get real designers working on eve again.
I wasn't aware that it was 'strategic options' for the only BCs worth flying to be Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek Draek and sometimes WelpCane.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2177
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar -These changes apply equally to guided and unguided missiles -Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect: Max flight time (with optimal range script) Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script) So _all_ Caldari missile ships are getting additional low and mid slots? Because we all know how few low slots they have, and their lack of spare mids are already a problem for PvP.
I don't tend to have any problems PVPing in Caldari ships.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2177
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Wolfstorm wrote: The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok. This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare.
So what you're telling me is that you won't be using the equivalent to Railguns and Beam Lasers in small gang PVP? Shocking that someone might want to use a "close range" weapons system (I use the term a little loosely).
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2177
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lord Ryan wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:Wolfstorm wrote: The current proposed changes make them useless for everything except blobbing where they will then be just ok. This is exactly it. Everyone who is like "Yay, this change is the best!" Hasn't really thought about how drakes are only "reasonably good" in small scale and solo PvP, now they will just be useless, along with any other boat that usually uses heavy missiles, in this form of warfare. Not just the drake the cane too. I think CCP may just pulled stealth solo/small gang nerf.
Small gang PVP is fine. Arguably, Caldari ships by and large just got a massive buff with the TE changes. Yeah the HML Draek just ate a nerf, but with the bonuses to HAMs.... !
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2179
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:DJ P0N-3 wrote:I crunched some pyfa numbers with the current state of affairs and one thing kind of stuck out at me: HAMs are clearly going to be the go-to, but are the tracking enhancers and tracking computers going to be enough? I can eke 625 DPS out of a Drake using Scourge Rage, lows full of ballistic control systems, weapon rigs, and HAMs, but that's all on paper. Other battlecruisers can shame that if they so choose. Are HAMs going to be looked at as part of this maneuver? Old-school HAM Drake used to reliably beat other BCs in a close-range brawl, with the exception of the Myrm. Some things have changed since 2008 but it's still very competitive. It fell out of favour because HML Drakes was better, not beause HAM Drake was bad.
This is pretty much true. It all boiled down to the difference between Jav HAM vs HML - which is to say there wasn't much of one. Even if we ignored the HML changes, the addition of TEs affecting HAMs would have obsoleted the HML Drake in small gang PVP.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2180
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm Down wrote: You cannot argue that these changes are good. They are horribly thought out and to try and iterate on poor thoughts is much more useless than asking for a restart and proper solutions.
I'm pretty sure that it's easily argued that these changes are good. Unless you think HML should just get a free pass for iWin?
-Liang
Ed: Also, I've never been moderated in these threads despite being pretty harsh. There's a difference between constructive feedback and RAEG RAWR **** YOU I HATE ALL OF Y(OU DIE DIE DIE DIE DIDE#!!!!!!
Tone it down a notch and discuss things reasonably. This is something you're historically very poor at. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2180
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:And keep in mind, these poorly thought out changes have massive outside implications such as:
MASSIVELY BOOSTED:
Loki Sliepnir Muninn Absolution Legion
MASSIVELY NERFED:
Nighthawk---- b/c it wasn't already **** enough.
I assume you're talking about the Arty Loki and Arty Sleip? Those... are not really common fits. Even still, they're kinda underwhelming. The Muninn would matter except for the whole LRHACs not mattering at all. The Absolution and Legion both need some buffing.
And the HAM NH is actually getting a pretty massive buff. And the HML NH is getting a relative boost next to the Tengu, which I personally find to be a good thing.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2180
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gaara's sniper wrote:If they are going to make TD affect missiles, they should make Ballistic enhancers of some sort
You mean like... tracking enhancers?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2184
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Wow can't wait............
I actually can't wait. The HAM Drake will be utterly ridiculous, and every other Caldari ship is getting a pretty massive boost as well. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2184
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
T's little helper wrote:Heavy missiles are already the weakest weapon, lowest damage, significant delay between launch and hit, low rate of fire. If heavy missiles are too powerful on cruisers, then adjust the cruiser hulls, not the missiles or their launchers. Can also agree on nighthawk, it has needed a boost for a VERY long time now. Changing misiles this much to the worse will have a dramatic effect on an already suffering ship, so if this change will ever happen, the nighthawk need extreme bonuses the very same day this change goes active.
I'm sorry, did you just say that Heavy Missiles are the weakest weapon system? And you said it with a straight face?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2190
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm Down wrote: Yeah, I agree, an Artillery Sliep that does 600+ DPS and 5000 alpha with great speed, drone and slot flexibility and shield tanking logistics (which everyone knows are superior is in no way good.
Oh this is gonna be good. Lets see the fit. :)
Quote: TE/TC change isn't a boost, it's a straight nerf to a NH which doesn't have the built in range bonus that the tengu does.
What...
The...
****...
?
The TE/TC change obviously isn't a boost.... because you say so?
Quote:See what happens when you start posting actual content in your post that can be refuted? you get ***** slapped.
I have ***** slapped you every single time I've seen you post in any of these F&I threads. Literally. Every. Single. Time.
Never stop posting.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2190
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Signal11th wrote:Wow can't wait............ I actually can't wait. The HAM Drake will be utterly ridiculous, and every other Caldari ship is getting a pretty massive boost as well. :) -Liang As long as they use HAMS....oh and lose a slot for one or more tracking modules.
It's totally blasphemy that someone would want to get better damage application instead of better EFT damage.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2190
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Ahh sarcasm, lowest form of wit and all that.
Can I take it that you don't have anything actually intelligent to respond with? So you agree that by and large missiles will be getting both better range and better damage application?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2191
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rita May wrote:hm, i would really like to see a Nighthawk fit, that has tackle, propmod, your "boost" moduls and still can fit a tank... where do you find all those slots, last time i checked my Nighthawks had 5 mids and lows, how about yours?
You aren't understanding what is being posted. Is the NH fine? No. Does that mean that the NH (and every other missile ship) isn't being boosted by the TE/TC change? No. Because they are.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2191
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Look at all of these terrified Tengu/Drake pilots flailing at the windows.
The funny thing about it is that if people bothered to engage their brain instead of simply flailing about they'd see that this is likely going to result in a net boost to the PVE Tengu. Consider that HAMs aren't being directly nerfed but you'll have a low and 2 'utility' mids on the optimal PVE setup to spend on TE/TCs. Just how far are we going to be able to push the range these HAM Tengus? How much better is the damage application going to be? My gut feeling says that they're going to be a lot better than today's HML setup for virtually all practical use cases.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2191
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Yeah, not sure if my current mission drake fit will be able to do L4's anymore...
Fit an active tank, a prop mod, and HAMs. You'll be fine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2195
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: lierally no reason to use a BS in PVE at all right now and the Tengu is the reason. I have used a Tengu for mission running in HS and the DPS isn't as good as everyone seems to think it is. It's good, but not spectacular. You will get more DPS from a CNR, Rattlesnake, DNI - maybe even a torpedo SNI with some TPs in the meds. HML is not an 'insta-win' against turrets and to suggest that they are OP in terms of damage is a bit silly imo. Sure, nerf the range a bit, but the damage shouldn't change significantly.
You don't have a torp SNI fit that's better than a Tengu. I guarantee it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2195
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rita May wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Rita May wrote:hm, i would really like to see a Nighthawk fit, that has tackle, propmod, your "boost" moduls and still can fit a tank... where do you find all those slots, last time i checked my Nighthawks had 5 mids and lows, how about yours? You aren't understanding what is being posted. Is the NH fine? No. Does that mean that the NH (and every other missile ship) isn't being boosted by the TE/TC change? No. Because they are. -Liang the TE/TC changes are a buff to missles, on that i can agree. Now look at the ships that are NOT considered OP (read: Tengu) like the nighthawk or the cerberus. If you fit these - and they are tight on slots to play around and put on top of that the proposed changes to HMs... for me this looks like a whole weapon system will be mostly useless - just telling everyone: "use HAMs" is partly OK, because most other ships fit close-range systems too, but the layout of these missle ships was not intended to use yet another module to apply its damage. so i am saying if CCP touches missles the need to touch the ships that use them at the same time or it will not work. cu
I have absolutely no doubt that we'll be seeing changes to those ships.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Marcus Harikari wrote:NONONO drake already does less dmg than other BC's why 20% dmg drop?? Confirming massive blobs of Brutix's and Myrmidons being able to apply full damage at 80km.
Only if your alliance ticker is AHARM....
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Misanth wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:These changes make both TEs and TDs both must-have modules for every ship. They need a nerf.
-Liang * TE need a nerf in it's present state (that's the main reason of the revival and popularity of Minmatar, not AC's or the ships itself). It almost definately does not need to be changed to also affect missiles. * TD is fine in present state, but should never hit the field in the suggsted affect-all-role TL;DR a small nerf to present-TE is in place, and the suggested changes to TE/TD should never be implemented.
There's some truth there, but I admit I'm not looking forward to the TE nerf's knock-on affect for blaster ships. Fortunately I seem to only fly missile and laser ships lately. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:baltec1 wrote:Look at all of these terrified Tengu/Drake pilots flailing at the windows. The funny thing about it is that if people bothered to engage their brain instead of simply flailing about they'd see that this is likely going to result in a net boost to the PVE Tengu. Consider that HAMs aren't being directly nerfed but you'll have a low and 2 'utility' mids on the optimal PVE setup to spend on TE/TCs. Just how far are we going to be able to push the range these HAM Tengus? How much better is the damage application going to be? My gut feeling says that they're going to be a lot better than today's HML setup for virtually all practical use cases. -Liang Yeah, I was irritated at first until I realize this is probably the likely case scenario. again you still nee web/Target painter to make hams worth while on tengu iv tried it its not good at all plus the fact that you NEED to faction fit and you NEED 6 slots for prop+tank , AB sba x2+medium bosoter (or 2 small boosters and 1 amp) then 2 hardners.
A few comments: - The cycle time on the TP means that it's generally not that worthwhile. Or, it feels like more work and if I wanted to work I'd fly a Golem. - We aren't just seeing a range increase from the TEs - we're also seeing damage application. Think of the TE/2 TCs as like 3 extra Flare/Rigor slots (that actually work). - You don't need that much tank for L4s.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:if the missle nerf goes ahead then tengu is gonna be the Nighthawk of the TIII's useless ****.
I like how you post this with no justification, yet I posted (with reasoning) why the Tengu may be solidified further solidified as the best mission runner.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm Down wrote: Actually, I came right back at Fozzie with proof pudding.
Actually you continued to make completely unsupported assertions and provided no proof whatsoever regarding anything you said. If you would be so kind as to return to the thread and provide fits that back up your ridiculous assertions, that'd be pretty great. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Meldorn Vaash wrote:I think the Devs should put a hold on the heavy missiles and Hurricane changes until they get to the actual Battlecruiser tiercide changes. That way they can determine if this is a weapon systems/ammo issue or a problem with Battlecruisers in general. Once done, they can adjust the cruiser class shortcomings or overpower issues with the weapon systems.
My 2 cents...
This is a reasonable opinion, but you must consider that BCs use cruiser weapons, not the other way around. The cruiser rebalance is damn near done and thus the weapons are also going to need balanced.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2200
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seranova Farreach wrote:if the missle nerf goes ahead then tengu is gonna be the Nighthawk of the TIII's useless ****. I like how you post this with no justification, yet I posted (with reasoning) why the Tengu may be solidified further solidified as the best mission runner. -Liang B/C everyone wants to run missions with 400dps boats that do **** all damage to smaller ships. Not like the Golem is going to be heaps better now with the higher DPS, bonuses to hitting smaller ships, TP bonus, and TC/TE effects on larger missiles. Oh wait, there was that time long ago when LR torpedos were all the rage of Mission running... who knew they'd ever bring that back.
The HAM Tengu puts out > 1000 DPS, and will do so with better damage application and better range than ever before. Please learn how to fit a ship.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2200
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Has there been any clarification on how the TE/TC boost will affect missile range. Is it going to use the optimal bonus? Or the falloff bonus? Or both of them added together?
It sounds like it'll be a separate stat, not tied to either optimal or falloff.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2201
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The HAM Tengu puts out > 1000 DPS Uh, please let me know what fit you're using to get that.
Heh, the original (L4) PVE Tengu was HAM fit. I did a fair amount of campaigning about range and damage application hurting it, but those problems should be getting significantly better with the changes. That was also before the mission MWD changes, so the range really hurt it. The raw damage will go down a bit if you replace one of the BCUs with a TE though.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2204
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'm Down wrote: Were you the one a few threads ago who bitched at me for doing pimped t2 fits and bonuses, and here you're making an impossible dps statement unless you go with billions in fitting options? And then chucked in Overheating stats to boot.
why yes, yes you were the one.
A few comments: - This particular branch of the conversation is about PVE. People regularly faction fit their Tengus. I personally have multiple PVE Tengus that are faction fit. - Those stats are not overheated. - I yelled at you for **** fitting and posting unrealistic PVP fits.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 01:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km
I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km Why do we never worry about what is supposed to keep the target in place at 80km and 50km?
Because we're talking about long range weapons systems? If you want to tackle, why don't you fit up close range weapons? Is your argument about HML being weak really that flimsy?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang You're only lending support to my point. Nobody is going to use any of those except for the HML Caracal. Why nerf the one thing people use, instead of boosting something that serves virtually no purpose?
Feel free to compare boosted ships to the modern Caracal.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: If every ship that used HMLs were good, then yeah you could make that case. But the fact is that HMLs are only good on those ships because of a unique combination of factors specific to the ship and the setup.
On pretty much any other ship they have a status similar to the other long-ranged medium-sized weapons.
Hey I'm at work and don't have EFT handy. Can you please post the following DPS numbers: - HML Caracal at 80km - Beam Omen at 80km - Rail Thorax at 80km - Arty Rupture at 80km - HML Caracal at 50km - Beam Omen at 50km - Rail Thorax at 50km - Arty Rupture at 50km I trust you enough to know you aren't going to whip together complete bullshit unrealistic fits. :) -Liang Sure. Hey let's also compare the HAM caracal with the blaster thorax, pulse omen and ac rupture.
Sure, let's compare at the edge of point range: 40km.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:baltec1 wrote:I see you continue to miss the part where everyone has told you multiple times that even after the 20% nerf the HML are on par for damage with the three other weapon types. So you're more or less saying that because nobody ever uses the other long range weapon types, they shouldn't be buffed at all? Liang Nuren wrote:Feel free to compare boosted ships to the modern Caracal. -Liang "Feel free to compare the Caracal to something that doesn't exist whatsoever". Uh, sure?
My point is that even the newly boosted ships with long range weapons don't compare to today's non-boosted Caracal with HML.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:08:00 -
[36] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range.
Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aglais wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sig radius actually has the same weight as tracking in the chance to hit formula for turrets.
Ah, but turrets still have a 'stationary' target that has none of these things applied to it. Missiles always, to my knowledge, have to deal with signature radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Sig radius is always evaluated even if transversal is 0 (both targets stationary). That's exactly the point. Doesn't this mean that even if a target is stationary, if it's signature radius is a certain value, missiles are guaranteed to do some amount less damage than if the signature radius is arbitrarily large? IE. An armor tanking Amarr ship with a small signature radius will naturally take less damage from a missile volley than a heavy shield tanking Caldari ship. And that's even before anything to do with velocity is thrown into the mix, which will take off even more damage potential.
This is generally true of turrets as well. Missiles and turrets are different, and now that HML is being smacked around some neither is obviously superior to the other.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Could i get all my Caldari and the missiles skills back please ? So i can redistribute later.
Edit : While i am thinking about this. Could i get ALL my SP back. Train a new skill name "To be distributed later", it's a skill that never ends.
Wait a year or 2 or 3 until CCP as a stable version.
Hahaha, feel free to send me all of your Caldari SP. Caldari is going to be fine in PVP, even without OP HML. I probably have it all trained already anyway, but just on the off chance you've trained something I haven't. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Aglais wrote:Well, I suppose the real kicker now is whether or not HAM Caracals are going to shine/be fittable, more than anything else. Kind of hoping that at the end of it all, the only real choice of what ship you PvP in isn't "which of these two/three battlecruisers do I choose".
Onto something a little more befitting of the topic, what of the Kestrel? I mean, I've not heard much good on standard missile performance, ever. With the increase in precision and damage, how's this going to go for a Kestrel that has improved fitting ability, potentially enough to fit four T2 standard launchers without having nothing else?
I'm not 100% sold on the Kestrel, but I've scored dozens and dozens of kills with Light Missiles since the Condor came out. They're ******* boss, and the 10% damage boost is gonna make me giggle like a school girl.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote:I'll one up your arbitrary choice of distance and say let's compare at the edge of scram range. Sure, so now that we've compared HAM Caracal performance at the edge of scram and edge of disruptor range we'll see that HAMs are actually a mostly balanced weapon system. HML, OTOH, is not. Thus it is getting smacked with a nerf bat and HAMs aren't. -Liang Actually I think they're a little underpowered as they are. If they'd allow GMP and rigs to affect them that would be a decent compromise. I don't see that happening though so I guess we'll see. I would also love a precision version of the 'unguided' missiles but I don't want to be too greedy. Turrets don't get this treatment with their short range counterparts and it irks me just a bit.
I... don't know. Rigs I can see for sure, especially in light of the TE/TC change. GMP though... I dunno. I'd be interested in play testing either way.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote: I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that.
You need to be careful with that. While it's true that sig radius always plays a role in damage mitigation, it also means that it's literally impossible to get "under the guns" of a missile boat. I'm completely fine with missiles having poor damage application to small fry because they're guaranteed to hit*.
* This is mostly true.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Trolly McForumalt wrote: I see it as balance for Caldari having the smallest drone bays in the game - missiles *have* (well ok they don't have to but they should) to do at least decent damage to smaller vessels. In my (somewhat limited) experience with HAMs they just don't do that.
You need to be careful with that. While it's true that sig radius always plays a role in damage mitigation, it also means that it's literally impossible to get "under the guns" of a missile boat. I'm completely fine with missiles having poor damage application to small fry because they're guaranteed to hit*. * This is mostly true. -Liang I'm gonna slightly disagree with your 'mostly' and come back at ya with 'sorta.' Also you have to consider that frigs can get popped by bigger ships when they approach with zero transversal - missile boats can't do that.
On the other hand, I avoidance tank gun ships all the time. You literally cannot do that with missiles unless you go so damn fast that the missiles never ever hit you (~6.5-7km/s)
-Liang
Ed: And if you do this, you had better be in a missile ship yourself, because even frigate guns aren't gonna hit **** at that speed. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Trolly McForumalt wrote: Well... no you're right to reach the zero damage threshold you have to be moving pretty dang quick but the damage reduction gains for even a moderate speed are pretty substantial for some (most?) of the missile family (cruise missiles, torps, and, relevant to this conversation, HAMs).
Yes, but the raw HP on small ships like that is pretty low. Allowing missiles to have really good damage projection against small ships would be unquestionably overpowered.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 03:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I'm Down wrote: Were you the one a few threads ago who bitched at me for doing pimped t2 fits and bonuses, and here you're making an impossible dps statement unless you go with billions in fitting options? And then chucked in Overheating stats to boot.
why yes, yes you were the one.
A few comments: - This particular branch of the conversation is about PVE. People regularly faction fit their Tengus. I personally have multiple PVE Tengus that are faction fit. - Those stats are not overheated. - I yelled at you for **** fitting and posting unrealistic PVP fits. -Liang Yes, nobody fits t2 modules and a few meta 4s and + 3% implants to pvp.. but everyone fits an estamels BCU to their pve ship... you are genius. I guess I never kill Arazu's and Rapiers (daily) that have 3-500 mil pvp fits or faction fit frigs, or any of that mess, no no, never happens. And heavens to Betsy I swear nobody in their right mind would ever fit cruiser sized t2 rigs.... that 30 mil is just too damn expensive. And bullshit you're doing 1000dps w/o doing that, b/c you can't get above 900 w/o doing either that or overheating... and even then, you're real damage is nowhere near that much after defenders, range issues, and speed/sig dmg reductions.
You need to learn to fit a ship, seriously. Every fit that you have posted has been a **** fit and you've lied about the stats. Furthermore, it's not as though it's particularly hard - someone earlier in this thread was talking about a straight replacement of HML -> HAM and getting 988 out of their current fit.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:22:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
You need to learn to fit a ship, seriously. Every fit that you have posted has been a **** fit and you've lied about the stats. Furthermore, it's not as though it's particularly hard - someone earlier in this thread was talking about a straight replacement of HML -> HAM and getting 988 out of their current fit.
-Liang
max skills 4 caldari navy BCU's 6 HAM 2s 5% rof Implant I can't seem to find any 5% damage implant for HAMs 941 dps In kinetic only, ratting never relies soley on kinetc, and even then you don't get the suggested dps. I've never once lied about ship fits or stats, you just can't read for **** all and regularly ignore half of my post that supplies specific details about how/why things work a certain way. You never compair apples to apples, you always fudge stats to make it work for whatever bullshit you want to say. Now tell me this, where is your lvl 4 tank coming from at this point? Are we going x-type hardeners to boot? This is the bullshit you come up with. By your very definition, I can Pimp fit out a Golem and easily get more range, way more damage, similar tank, more cargo, more useful high slots, and a drone bay to boot. Yet you want to exclaim that tengu is the king of ratting after a huge nerf to missiles. Funny, considering the huge range limitations that you didn't even account for mean that a proteus will easily match it w/o ever losing damage to NPC defenders.
A few comments: - lmgtfy.com?q=1000+dps+tengu - http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/55448-High-dps-enough-tank-medium-price-tengu.html (Not how I'd fit it, but it's servicable and I've used a similar fit) - If you're talking about ratting, make sure that your reload DPS is unchecked. This is also generally true for PVP. - You straight up said the Bellicose gets 40-50k EHP and 550 DPS. You constantly shift goalposts by using T2 rigs and T3 bonuses for your fits but insist that nobody else can when comparing ****. CCP Fozzie straight ripped you a new ******* for being the shitstain that you are. - If you're really yaay: what the **** why are you so ******* bad now? Have I really come so far in this game that I've surpassed you so dramatically in general ship knowledge?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
Wpolo wrote: So at the end of the day missile will be useless.
I will buy all of your worthless missile characters at 1 million ISK per million SP in missiles and Caldari. TYIA.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2211
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Wpolo wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Wpolo wrote: So at the end of the day missile will be useless.
I will buy all of your worthless missile characters at 1 million ISK per million SP in missiles and Caldari. TYIA. -Liang Why i will sell it?
Because all missiles are worthless, of course! Of course, you could just be blowing hot air up everyone's ass about how bad off missiles are going to be... but MMO players would never resort to extreme hyperbole to game game balance in favor of extreme imbalance in their favor.
No, never.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - lmgtfy.com?q=1000+dps+tengu - http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/55448-High-dps-enough-tank-medium-price-tengu.html (Not how I'd fit it, but it's servicable and I've used a similar fit) - If you're talking about ratting, make sure that your reload DPS is unchecked. This is also generally true for PVP. - You straight up said the Bellicose gets 40-50k EHP and 550 DPS. You constantly shift goalposts by using T2 rigs and T3 bonuses for your fits but insist that nobody else can when comparing ****. CCP Fozzie straight ripped you a new ******* for being the shitstain that you are. - If you're really yaay: what the **** why are you so ******* bad now? Have I really come so far in this game that I've surpassed you so dramatically in general ship knowledge? -Liang No, I said a Belicose can get 20-30k ehp and 550 dps. I said it can still get 40-50k ehp with around a 500 dps build which was 2 bcus, a 3% damage implant, and nothing else special...... I realize American schools are not teaching good reading skills, but jesus, that's pretty awful. Quote:#216 Posted: 2012.09.14 19:24 | Report | Edited by: ISD TYPE40 I'm sorry, but if you think it's a Paper thin setup on a Belicose because the 4 lows were dedicated to dps, you don't get the point. You can still get this thing upwards of 40,000-50,000 ehp with a bonus ship and still around 500 dps.
I mean do I literally have to theory craft every fit for you just to show you the variety of ways that this is not a good idea?
575 powergrid +25% skill + 15% RC + 10% ancillary = 909 PG. That's easily enough to fit 2 large shield extenders, and a Damage control + 2 slots left for resistance and rigs to boost shielding quite high. Added to the fact that you have high drone + HAM damage you can get 475 DPS just with skills alone. Add in overheating, implants, or other variety of options that ******* rich *people* like me might do, you can see how this quickly gets OP....
Go back to that thread. Post fits. Romney isn't doing enough ******** **** today and I need good laughs.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Aaron Greil wrote:well, this has devolved quickly into a **** toss.
This was expected. CCP nerfs ships that have been overpowered so long that when people join the game they're told "train X because it is literally the only thing worth training". Is it any surprise that people would be butthurt over the nerf? The only way to fix these things kinds of problems is to nerf faster. It's a delicate balance though, because you have to be careful not to nerf before the metagame can adapt - and frankly that can take quite a long time!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 05:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'm Down wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Aaron Greil wrote:well, this has devolved quickly into a **** toss. This was expected. CCP nerfs ships that have been overpowered so long that when people join the game they're told "train X because it is literally the only thing worth training". Is it any surprise that people would be butthurt over the nerf? The only way to fix these things kinds of problems is to nerf faster. It's a delicate balance though, because you have to be careful not to nerf before the metagame can adapt - and frankly that can take quite a long time! -Liang Yeah, and nobody see's the problem with TD changes, the huge buffts to fitting LR weapon systems on other cruisers, the unneeded missile damage reduction, and the lack of addressing ships that were the cause of 90% of the problems that were blamed specifically on missiles. Kinda like nobody saw the horrible concepts for titans and capitals all these years, the horrible 0.0 mechanics, the horrible proliferation effects, the horrible inflationary pressures, etc, etc, etc. Watching CCP dig it's own grave has been sad over the years.
TDs are almost certain to be OP, but if we're making TEs and TCs affect missiles it's not exactly an unexpected move. Furthermore, suppose that you have unlimited fittings on the Beam Harbinger and Legion: how would you go about making them compete with the HML Drake and Tengu?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 06:42:00 -
[51] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:TDs are almost certain to be OP, but if we're making TEs and TCs affect missiles it's not exactly an unexpected move. Furthermore, suppose that you have unlimited fittings on the Beam Harbinger and Legion: how would you go about making them compete with the HML Drake and Tengu?
-Liang I'm still scratching my head here on why a more mild nerf to HMLs coupled with a buff to damage of the other 3 long range types is for some reason completely out of the question. I'm calling for a buff to three weapons types to actually make more playing styles viable, as opposed to "waaaah HMLs are OP, look at how bad these other weapons are in comparison!" Not saying YOU are saying that, but if the goal is bringing them in line then shouldn't the underutilized weapons systems be buffed?
Heh, at least you don't deny that HML is a total outlier. I think that the best choice here really is to nerf HML because it's such an outlier that buffing other LR weapons would probably end up with justified complaints and a buff to close range weapons. That'd leave us in the exact same relative place as if they'd just nerfed HML to start with.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2214
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Posted - 2012.09.19 06:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Errand Girl wrote:Speaking as a relatively new pilot who doesn't have 50 million+ SP and had the misfortune to choose Caldari... What am I supposed to fly now? HMLs already have fairly weak DPS and a 20% damage nerf means that my ship options for both PVE and PVP are totally gimped.
Drakes have too much tank, fine. HMLs have too much range, fine. But the damage nerf means all Caldari cruiser and battlecruiser hulls now pretty much suck. I realize that drake blobs are an issue in null sec, but seriously.... find a way to nerf drake blobs without totally hosing carebears and small gang PVPers.
As a young player, I have very little cross training. I'm all Caldari ship skills and all missiles. Now I'm looking at what? 6+ months of training before I can be good at flying another race's ships and using another races weapons? Maybe that's not a long time to a lot of vets around here (who are much more likely to be well cross-trained already), but to a 1 year player that's a very long time. I'll wait until the final changes are announced, but I would very seriously consider quitting EVE rather than throwing away the millions of SP I have in soon-to-be-worthless crap, plus basically starting over on my ship/gun progression.
Three things: - The Drake does not have low DPS by any stretch of the imagination. - Caldari will be fine in PVP. - Caldari is likely going to be improved in PVE with the TE/TC changes.
-Laing Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Three things: - The Drake does not have low DPS by any stretch of the imagination. - Caldari will be fine in PVP. - Caldari is likely going to be improved in PVE with the TE/TC changes.
-Laing Drake DPS is hotly debated. Caldari PVP was the Drake (Tengu rose slowly too) until it got a boost from ASBs, which will get nerfed somehow. TP already did that, unless we are getting unscripted low slot versions. I respect your opinion, but I am on the other side of the fence. And, no I haven't fallen off the edge to say HML are useless. I will agree that people are getting dramatic, which doesn't help my case. The Caracal needs more love (and, as I predicted, is out classed by the Bellicose). The Navy Caracal, Cerberus, and Nighthawk got nerfed with the Tengu/Drake. Caldari HACs are now a complete laughing stock. Huge nerfs like this are something I always frown on. When they affect moderate to under powered ships, such as in this case, it really is ludicrous. I use both missiles and guns, have for years, and this really makes no sense to me. Btw, while IGÇÖm glad there was a slight speed increase; HML at long range loses DPS from over firing. At close range, this doesnGÇÖt happen, but damage is still meh anyway and on-paper damage at range that is what is argued against. The range needed a nerf more, but range bonuses should have been buffed. Then ships like Cerberus would make HMs shine, while the Drake would fail (Tengu would get a bonus nerf). I say: Give back the HM damage Make a low slot into a mid slot on the Caracal (mirror the Omen, make it choose gank or tank in lows) Really nerf flight time on HMs (nerfs the Drake and sadly the Nighthawk) Boost the flight time bonus on the Caracal, Navy Caracal, and Cerberus to 20% Nerf the flight time bonus of the Tengu to 5% Maybe buff HAM range slightly (I think it is too short) This would prevent nerfing under powered ships, give the Caracal a buff instead of a nerf/buff, and at least nerf the Nighthawk less.
A few comments: - Yeah, people are getting overly dramatic. They should stop that. - The Caracal's DPS is being lowered in the single digits. It's not being hit very hard at all. - The Cerb and NH were already laughing stocks and are basically never flown. Arguing against the Drake/Tengu nerf from the perspective that it might nerf ships that are simply never ever flown is complete madness - especially when those ships literally cannot be fixed until the weapons systems they depend on are fixed. - Caldari are getting a net damage application and range boost by way of the TE/TC changes.
To your proposal: - Keeping HML damage constant is extremely short sighted. - I don't think that's a good idea, personally. I like the balanced slot layout, and I'd be extremely leery of the ewar advantage that would give to the Caracal. - You suggest a big nerf to the NH and use the NH as a reason not to nerf HML. What? - HAM range is getting boosted with the TE/TC changes. It's unknown how far they're going to go, but it won't take a whole hell of a lot to push Javs out to the critical areas. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:20:00 -
[54] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Gypsio III wrote:There's basically nothing the matter with HAMs. Old-school HAM Drake would generally win a 1v1 with another t2 BCs, except frequently the Myrmidon. Rage HAMs do almost full damage to an unwebbed Hurricane, CN HAMs do full damage to almost all webbed cruisers. Since the HAM Drake fits a web, this is not a problem. In pretty much all the fleets i end up with where the FC ask to reship into BC. The total ham drakes on the field is always anywhere between none at all to almost none at all. I wonder why ? Maybe it's because there are far better close range BCs ?
It's because everyone's fitting HML Drakes or are being dumb and thinking "loldpsdrake" like we see in this thread. The tank/gank ratio of a properly fit HAM Drake is not beatable. Furthermore, it has a resist bonus so it adapts better to larger gangs with logi support.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Bloutok wrote: If it's not beatable why is the HML drake the one that is mostly used ?
Edit: or are you suggesting that the HML is even more unbeatable ?
The HML Drake is used because the DPS difference is relatively small and it has almost arbitrarily better damage projection and alpha.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Onictus wrote:Bloutok wrote:
If it's not beatable why is the HML drake the one that is mostly used ?
Edit: or are you suggesting that the HML is even more unbeatable ?
Because the way it is now its does battleship damage at battleship ranges with close to a battleship tank......all while having the maneuverability and align time of a battle-cruiser. People use HMLs over HAMS for two reasons, 1) they DON'T like getting into point range, much less scram range. 2) range the range afforded by the current HML far far outrips the marginal DPS increase HAMs provide If I have the choice to do 400dps at 90km and 525 at 30km I'm going to take the 25% hit for a 400% range advantage, every. single. time. Fine, nerf the range, not the damage.
As Fozzie stated earlier in the thread: HML contains most of the damage of close range medium missiles with all of the range. If you want to nerf the range you'd better be prepared to have HML become HAMv2 and have literally no long range missile option at all.
I somehow doubt you'd be excited by the Drake's HML range being neutered down to 25km or so.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:I would like to point out that HM are only really used at long ranges like 80k in blobs because in small warfare, whatever is getting shot can usually just warp away. So let's talk about blobs.
I virtually never fly in blobs and yet I still have 2x more kills in Drakes than in all other ships combined. And furhtermore, I've always leaned heavily towards HML as being superior to HAMs. Though a proper HAM Drake is certainly a monster. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:I think it would be more like 35km and yes, i'd go for that.
Cool well I'd be raising holy hell over the complete removal of all long range weapon missile platforms. But no, you have to keep your HML damage for some odd reason. What, did you forget to train the 8 days for HAM 5?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Bazzalisk wrote:I would like to point out that HM are only really used at long ranges like 80k in blobs because in small warfare, whatever is getting shot can usually just warp away. So let's talk about blobs. I virtually never fly in blobs and yet I still have 2x more kills in Drakes than in all other ships combined. And furhtermore, I've always leaned heavily towards HML as being superior to HAMs. Though a proper HAM Drake is certainly a monster. :) -Liang I would like to point out that Caldari are referred to as the kings of PvE by some people which causes some people to then choose Caldari for the Drake and Tengu. They then do their PvE for a while, get bored, want to do some PvP only to find that the only useful ship they can fly is the Drake. THAT'S why it gets used so often. Not because the Drake is some kind of mother-of-all godships. It's because the rest of the caldari ships are all useless for pvp.
Hahahahahahahahahhaa, no. You are totally, completely, and utterly wrong. Caldari are the upcoming kings of small gang PVP for anyone who has a clue what they're doing. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 16:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
Kesthely wrote: The same is going to happen if they force the HML in this direction but then towards tank, with a +10% bonus to light missile damage and -20% penalty to Heavy missile, a Rapid light missile setup for ships that give bonuses to both weapon systems gets you within 15% of the new HML damage while freeing up a lot of power for a heavier tank. If the Tracking enhancers would give a 10-15% bonus to missile range i could get a Rapid light missile caracal over 100km have it at 36k effective hp, and only do less then 15% damage difference between a HML variant. Also the Explosion velocity and exlosion radius would probably give me against many targets more effective damage then the HML variant would.
Doing the HML change to promote HAM use is not going to work.
The Drake doesn't have that luxury because it doesn't have a bonus to AML. Furthermore, the Caracal getting decent performance out of a bonused weapon platform? Blasphemy. But to humor you: what's the pct DPS difference at 30km with 3 BCU HAMs?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote: Let's see you fit some medium artilleries to a Hurricane with or without the proposed changes without gimping the fit.
Hurricane 6x 650mm Artillery, 2x Neut MWD, Disruptor, 2x LSE 3x Gyro, 2 TE, DC 3x CDFE
It's one of the old standard solo/small gang PVP fits. It works remarkably well. It might need some tweaking with the neuts with the changes, but ECM drones are plenty strong enough as far as counters to frigs go.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2230
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?
I'll still use HML. HAMs just don't reach far enough to work with loki boosted point range.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2231
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Sadly that won't fit, with medium neuts anymore, it'll fit with a pair of HAM launchers in their place, with an RCUII I think it would wedge in, but with the hull changes its going to be about 8% over grid with a T2 fit. Gypsio III wrote:Onictus wrote:...and forget an armor cane. its pretty much dead. Viva la Cyclone. I just made a future armour cane with 425s, 1600 plate and dual neuts, it took a single ACR. I was surprised at how easy it was, maybe a 1600 Hurricane should at least have to drop to smaller guns. The only difference is that the neuts are now small ones. But if you think that it should be able to fit the biggest guns, an oversize plate, MWD and dual med neuts, then you simply don't believe in fitting restrictions. To be fair I usually used 220mm to facilitate the medium neuts (sans fitting mods or implants), but that is a judgement call.
The biggest fear you should have when flying that ship are long range tackle interceptors (regular frigs die) and close range frigates. Small neuts are superior for capping out the close range frigs and the medium neuts aren't going to bother a long range tackle inty. It's not even a noticeable nerf to the fit.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2231
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:13:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bloutok wrote:Bloodpetal wrote:Bloutok wrote:
If that is true then ask yourself if the new long range drake would be your first choice ? I am not only talking about using drakes, i mean, first choice in all ships. Hell, ok maybe not even first. Second ? Third ? None at all ?
Let me reverse this question because it's frankly beneath Lian to even respond. When is a long range Railgun Moa/Ferox your first choice? Hell, i still have medium hybrid skill to 4. I trained medium Arty and AC first and i am now training the secondary gun skills to 5 :P In other words. Never. But the entire point i am trying to make is that there is only 1 or 2 viable dps ships in the caldari line and they are the one getting the nerf to the point of being unusable. I think that is wrong.
The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2231
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:20:00 -
[65] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Kesthely wrote: The same is going to happen if they force the HML in this direction but then towards tank, with a +10% bonus to light missile damage and -20% penalty to Heavy missile, a Rapid light missile setup for ships that give bonuses to both weapon systems gets you within 15% of the new HML damage while freeing up a lot of power for a heavier tank. If the Tracking enhancers would give a 10-15% bonus to missile range i could get a Rapid light missile caracal over 100km have it at 36k effective hp, and only do less then 15% damage difference between a HML variant. Also the Explosion velocity and exlosion radius would probably give me against many targets more effective damage then the HML variant would.
Doing the HML change to promote HAM use is not going to work.
The Drake doesn't have that luxury because it doesn't have a bonus to AML. Furthermore, the Caracal getting decent performance out of a bonused weapon platform? Blasphemy. But to humor you: what's the pct DPS difference at 30km with 3 BCU HAMs? -Liang For your amusement the Ham would get 98% more damage then the rapid light at 30 km with your setup, 100% damage vs 200% range isn't a bad tradeoff on paper, but the RML has a better overal damage when factoring speed and sizes. Also the Effective hp on a RML caracal is 77% higher. If you try to go ranged HAM with Javelins, its dps suddenly drops to only 40% Higher compared to a similar RML setup while still only haveing half the range and less then half its effective hp This would eventually result in the same Range + Effective HP vs Damage we've seen on the drake
I was following you right up until you claimed that a 36k EHP tank was equivalent to a 100k EHP tank.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2231
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:22:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bloutok wrote: Fine, Make the ham drake better.
Edit: Or one medium missile launcher with different range amo.
The HAM Drake is getting better at the same time that the HML Drake is being brought down to where the rest of the long range weapons are. Arguably, it's still better than the other long range weapons because you can't get under its weapons and even up close it'll have pretty fantastic damage application.
But then it's just different instead of wtf why would you fit anything else?!?!?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:real numbers .. with non-cherry picked data using raw data only (this means unskilled, un bonused)
You can't use unskilled data because there are a different number of support skills for each weapon platform.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
I was following you right up until you claimed that a 36k EHP tank was equivalent to a 100k EHP tank.
-Liang
In the initial post on wich you replied i clearly stated that these changes to HML will not promote HAM use on ships that have bonuses for HAM RML and HML Takeing in range and damage in consideration RML with these changes allow for better tanks on those ships and are still able to shoot to (extreme) long ranges Also due the light missile vs the heavy assault missile, the real damage difference vs verry fast and / or small ships will be significantly closer to eachother On these ships i don't think anyone would chose for the HAM. The reference to the drake was only to show what would happen if people were to chose range + effective hp vs damage NOT to compare the caracal with the drake
Hmmm, I see. I think you're partially correct. AML is absolutely a viable weapons system on ships which have a bonus for it. People will be able to fit AML Caracals up with relatively large tanks and engage from long range. This is exactly the one of the niches that the Caracal is designed to fill. However, to claim that nobody will use HAMs "up close" seems a bit wrong.
HAM range is sufficient to engage at the edge of Loki boosted point range and gets, as you say, 98% more DPS. Speaking from experience, range can most certainly be your tank in small gang warfare where these tactics would be most useful. Furthermore, you'll actually be able to point someone and contribute to the gang instead of just engage from 100km+.
So yeah, to claim nobody's going to use HAMs because HML is being nerfed is just wrong. Even on ships that have a bonus to all three weapons systems.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:47:00 -
[69] - Quote
Kinet wrote:Guess it is time to sell off my supply of Drakes and heavy missiles. Once this patch goes live you wont be able to give them away.
Good thing CCP spent the time to work on the missile launcher animations since after this patch most people will be avoiding them like the plague.
This nerf hurts more than just the Drake, what about all the other Caldari missile boats that are going to be turned into dust collectors after this patch? Reduce range by 25% and damage by 20%? Really?
If the patch comes and you can't find anyone to give all of your Caldari assets to, I will gladly pay 1 ISK per 100 ISK of today's market value for all of it. TYVM, TIA.
Quote:Why didnt I roll a Minnie...
Because you didn't want to roll a race with ****** mechanics that's by and large getting anally ****** by the rebalance?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 17:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:To give a serious recommendation. I don't think Friend or Foe Missiles should be affected by Tracking Disruptors. If the computational system is on the FOF missile and FOF is partially to counteract ECM, then the FOF missiles shouldn't suffer from TD penalties. Just throwing that out there. Then again, noone uses FOF because their target selection is totally trash. But, you know. Principles and all that.
Heh, I kinda like it. Also, the way to use FOFs is to MWD straight at your target and sit on their face. Works pretty well for Falcons that let you do it. Otherwise you'll just end up shooting drones. :(
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:real numbers .. with non-cherry picked data using raw data only (this means unskilled, un bonused)
You can't use unskilled data because there are a different number of support skills for each weapon platform. -Liang These are numbers at the BASE of the pyramid.. they are foundations that the game bases everything off. So i can use them, because the game does.
No, your argument is invalid because it completely ignores both what is actually possible and what is reasonably probable.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
The Bazzalisk wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.
-Liang I really don't get why people keep saying this. I didn't compare beams or rails to HMLs when I said "these are total ****, why would I ever use them?" On their own they're awful and need a buff or people won't use them any more just because HMs are being nerfed. The only thing that's going to happen now is that long range combat will be solely in the domain of artillery and rare but specific applications of rails (Nagas, Rokhtrine). So much this. People don't not-use medium rails because HML drakes are soooo good, they don't use them because they're **** and nerfing HMLs won't change that
Actually, people specifically don't use medium rails because the Drake and HML exists. Go look at the old threads regarding the Rail ferox.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:The other ships become much more viable once HML stops dominating the **** out of the entire LR cruiser weapon field.
-Liang I really don't get why people keep saying this. I didn't compare beams or rails to HMLs when I said "these are total ****, why would I ever use them?" On their own they're awful and need a buff or people won't use them any more just because HMs are being nerfed. The only thing that's going to happen now is that long range combat will be solely in the domain of artillery and rare but specific applications of rails (Nagas, Rokhtrine). The range nerf is reasonable, 10% damage nerf would also be reasonable on top of that. Giving missiles comparable DPS ignores their many counters (plus one with this patch).
You keep complaining about the counter, but that counter is a natural result of the incredible boost that comes from the TE/TC change.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:09:00 -
[74] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:real numbers .. with non-cherry picked data using raw data only (this means unskilled, un bonused)
You can't use unskilled data because there are a different number of support skills for each weapon platform. -Liang These are numbers at the BASE of the pyramid.. they are foundations that the game bases everything off. So i can use them, because the game does. No, your argument is invalid because it completely ignores both what is actually possible and what is reasonably probable. -Liang Except CCP is changing base stats by looking at the platforms after skill and role bonuses are applied...
So... you support my position. Cool.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:So... you support my position. Cool.
-Liang No, I'm supporting his, the point being that skill and role bonuses are being ignored yet they're taken into account in the numbers that show that the missiles are overpowered. Yes they're overpowered, but not as much as you think they are, otherwise they'd be viable on more than simply two platforms.
His argument is that you should ignore all skills and all bonuses. This is both unreasonable and impractical because it ignores what is both possible and what is likely. It is an utterly stupid thing to assert, and your support for it diminishes my respect for your opinion. I get that you want to claim missiles aren't OP, but seriously this is not the way to make the argument.
-Liang
Ed: Also, what you said supported my position, not his. -_- Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I misinterpreted his point, but I still maintain that the platforms should be looked at a lot more closely, rather than blaming a problem specific to two platforms on an entire weapons system.
The platforms which use the weapons system cannot really be properly balanced until the weapon system itself is properly balanced. And that's really the crux of the issue - because I don't think anyone in their right mind can reasonably claim that HML are not OP as ******* hell.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2233
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:29:00 -
[77] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: I misinterpreted his point, but I still maintain that the platforms should be looked at a lot more closely, rather than blaming a problem specific to two platforms on an entire weapons system.
The platforms which use the weapons system cannot really be properly balanced until the weapon system itself is properly balanced. And that's really the crux of the issue - because I don't think anyone in their right mind can reasonably claim that HML are not OP as ******* hell. -Liang And as I've said several times, the weapons system itself can be balanced, I just think CCP is going about it a bit too heavy handed. The only difference I'm proposing from Fozzie's nerf is reducing the damage nerf from 20% to 10%. I'm curious as to how the TE/TC changes will pan out, but those stats haven't been released yet so I can't really say whether I'd be happy using the tracking script on HAMs, for example.
I'd rather see similar performance between HML and other LR weaponry than leave us in a situation where people are literally lol why would I ever use a rail ship when I can use HML?. You talk about how HML has many counters, but so do turrets. And the damndest thing about it is that they're different. HML will continue to be unaffected by your personal movement and transversal. It will continue to be impossible to get under your guns. It will continue to have relatively high alpha.
In short: Even nerfing HML damage by 20% is not going to render the weapon platform useless. It'll just bring it back down to where there's an actual choice to make about where your weak points should be instead of simply always HML.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2236
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote: The raw unskilled data has an ERROR in it, and looking at that data has highlighted it.
See where I was going now .......
I AM saying heavy missiles are broken .... but for a totally different reason to you.
None of that matters, because the only balance that matters is the balance that has support skills applied. That's what I'm getting at.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2245
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Posted - 2012.09.19 19:43:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:like most i got side tracked by the (IMO) ridicules HML proposal, but other questions pop up.
Are Tracking Computers/Tracking Enhancers going to stack now with Rigor and Flare and missle flight time/speed rigs? And if not, WHY not.
Unstacked TCs/TEs with certain rig combinations could mean some REALLY long ranged HAMs that would simply replace HMLs in mid ranged fights.lol. And since HAMs fire so much faster, that could cause more lag issues in fleet fights, no?
I'm going to assume that they stack. I'm super curious what kind of range bonuses and damage application bonuses we'll see though. It'll really be the deciding factor on whether or not this is a nerf to HML or a massive boost to missiles as a whole. It feels like a moderate to large boost to most missile platforms.
Consider that a sniping TC Cruise Raven will really smack cruisers in the face if those TCs work out well.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2245
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Posted - 2012.09.19 19:44:00 -
[80] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:If the Tracking Computer (etc.) now effect missiles .... doesn't that conflict with the Target Painter module?
Or did i miss something here?
They should do different things. TPs affect the target while TCs affect your ability to project and apply damage.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2246
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Posted - 2012.09.19 21:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:http://i.imgur.com/m8Aw9.jpg is a screenshot of several hundred heavy missiles flying at my stiletto.
Also, Ive volleyed many an interceptor in my artycane.
Going 400m/s you better warp the **** out.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2246
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Posted - 2012.09.19 21:28:00 -
[82] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Page 85. Wow. Well hopefully CCP Fozzie is still reading this. I'm concerned about Tracking Disruptors. Faction Warfare is frigate heavy. We've seen the use of alot of the new frigates there. And many if not most are using tracking disruptors. A condor with light missiles, long point, and two TD is common. An arty slasher set up the same way is too. Even Atrons and Executioners will fit a TD rather then a web. Now I've held my peace as I can build destroyers that lock farther and shoot farther then these small, frail frigates. I also know in the background that missile boats were very capable against them as they were immune to TD. But if that's not the case I can guarantee you that everyone and their mom will be fitting a TD. Some ideas:
- Increase the fittings on the TD. Increase the fitting grid on specialized boats.
- Take the TD for missiles one step further and seperate them for use via race/weapon type. I.E. - create a TD for hybrids, projectiles, lasers, missiles, and a weak general purpose one.
- Nerf the TD and boost the specialized boats.
Hee hee. I think Heretics pioneered that 2 TD Condor fit. We've moved on for the most part.
-Liang
Ed: Thanks Hahbs. :) Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2248
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Posted - 2012.09.19 22:08:00 -
[83] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Also all medium turrets have the option to load close range ammo for HUGE increases in tracking and damage.
This is the BIGGEST reason why HMLs shouldn't be nerfed as bad as the nerf proponents and CCP Fozzie seem to think they are. Scatim Helicon has the right idea. 20% range nerf, 10% damage nerf, switch fitting requirements with HAMs, buff HAM damage slightly. (Actually instead of buffing HAM damage I'd be for buffing HAM explosion velocity and radius, but other than that they're fine).
I feel like that's part of the trade off between not having close range damage and not being weak up close. Bring on the 20%! ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2249
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Posted - 2012.09.20 00:38:00 -
[84] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Oh yeah, this is totally a buff to missiles
Heh, it is a massive buff to missiles and only your reliance on using a long range weapon as a close range weapon would make you not see it. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2260
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Posted - 2012.09.21 16:10:00 -
[85] - Quote
Syzygium wrote: Switch Explosion Velocity and Explosion Signature for HMs and HAMs and you will automatically buff HAMs slightly while nerfing HMs slightly.
This operates on the assumption that HML needs only a slight nerf. This is false. Furthermore, HAMs are getting a buff by way of the TE/TC changes.
There's been 60 pages posted since last time I perused this thread. Are there any specifics released about that BTW?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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